Apple Lisa booting help

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Apple Lisa booting help

Postby Divix798 on Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:02 pm

I recently bought a Lisa 2/10 with a faulty Widget drive very cheap in the local classifieds. I also aquired a external Profile 5MB drive a few months ago very cheap. I bought the adaptor so I could connect the Profile where the Widget would connect. Powered up the machine and it booted up to Macworks Plus. The floppy drive worked fine. So things went pretty smooth here at first. I then copied a couple apps such as disk copy 4.2 and Dart from the mothership site to the Profile. Disk copy had worked. But when I launched Dart the Lisa crashed on me with a Bomb error. I restarted the machine. Now when I boot it is in a endless loop. It goes to Diagnostic check as usual to "loading.....", Beeps once, then goes to the Macworks plus title with a happy Mac logo and then instead of going to the normal OS desktop, it goes right back to the diagnostic tests and passes all of them and repeats forever in that order!

Does anyone know the symtom here as it gives me no errors at all. Just a endless loop :(

Thanks
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Re: Apple Lisa booting help

Postby tezza on Sat Mar 02, 2013 3:47 pm

Sounds serious. Unfortunately I've never seen this symptom before. I wonder if running DART corrupted the boot tracks somehow.

Does the machine boot normally just with a floppy? If so, then at least the Lisa is ok.

I didn't have any luck getting my profile working. It did boot to MacWorks a few random times but 99% of the time it just throws up an undefined error.

I do have one of these X/Profile cards so I can at least pretend the drive is going. It's too quite for the real deal though :)
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Re: Apple Lisa booting help

Postby Divix798 on Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:31 pm

tezza wrote:Sounds serious. Unfortunately I've never seen this symptom before. I wonder if running DART corrupted the boot tracks somehow.

Does the machine boot normally just with a floppy? If so, then at least the Lisa is ok.

I didn't have any luck getting my profile working. It did boot to MacWorks a few random times but 99% of the time it just throws up an undefined error.

I do have one of these X/Profile cards so I can at least pretend the drive is going. It's too quite for the real deal though :)


Hey Tezza thanks for the reply. Ive read all your articles and they are they are a bible to me of help and thanks. The lisa passes all tests at beginning so I hope the boards are ok. The Lisa did boot normally to Macworks plus for about a good hour. I should of read of files like dart that cannot work with Macworks Plus. Maybe Plus 2 Im not sure. I installed Disc copy and dart on a floppy to the Lisa from my Mac SE. Disc copy was fine but loading dart is the cancer now. I can stop the endless loop now by holding option to get a blinking disk icon for a system disk. I have tried many many system disks fom images from mothership, Raul's and your two files for a Macworks XL 2.0 I think. The "boot" disk goes to white screen then gives me a read error. One Macworks system from mothership (not plus) disk almost worked and went to the last title screen(Welcome to Macworks) but gave me a bomb error:(! In the service manual it says to enter a system disk at flahing icon.
I think I need A "Macworks Plus disk" since thats the OS im using maybe? The one I found on mothership does not work and I cant get Disk copy4.2 to see it!. Does it work for anyone else in Disc copy4.2? Im hoping a fresh install in the Lisa will help but finding software has been a task. If you know any sources that I dont know that would be great :D. There is Macworks Plus II on ebay for a very large sum :(
Anyway I found a shop a hour away that works on vintage macs and "says" he has a guy that LLF Widget and Profile drives for the lisa too. Should I get the Profile LLF done too? I have zero idea what its going to cost. Ill update what these guys know tomorrow. Also what is a reliale OS on the Lisa? Should I downgrade?

Cheers,
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Re: Apple Lisa booting help

Postby tezza on Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:54 am

Divix798 wrote:I have tried many many system disks fom images from mothership, Raul's and your two files for a Macworks XL 2.0 I think. The "boot" disk goes to white screen then gives me a read error. One Macworks system from mothership (not plus) disk almost worked and went to the last title screen(Welcome to Macworks) but gave me a bomb error:(! In the service manual it says to enter a system disk at flahing icon.
I think I need A "Macworks Plus disk" since thats the OS im using maybe? The one I found on mothership does not work and I cant get Disk copy4.2 to see it!. Does it work for anyone else in Disc copy4.2? Im hoping a fresh install in the Lisa will help but finding software has been a task. If you know any sources that I dont know that would be great :D. There is Macworks Plus II on ebay for a very large sum :(

I also found it very hard to get good copies of boot and installation disks from the web. Some worked and some didn't. Those ones on my Lisa disk image page worked for me.

If you get an error with the Macworks emulator disk image from my site then either the images have not been written to real disks properly or the floppy drive is faulty. You might need to sort this out before trying to reinstall on the ProFile. Yes, there are several versions of the Mac-like Lisa OSs and if you want to repair the software in the Lisa you'll need the right one.

I see you've been posting on the (International) vintage computer forums too. That's a good idea as there are a limited number of Lisa users here in New Zealand.

Anyone else on the forum have a working Lisa?
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Re: Apple Lisa booting help

Postby Corestore on Sun Mar 03, 2013 8:46 am

tezza wrote:Anyone else on the forum have a working Lisa?


Yep. I think I even unboxed it.

Also have a couple of ?dead? Profiles, a couple more Lizae, and one of those dohickeys that replaces the widget drive with a CF card...!

Mike
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Re: Apple Lisa booting help

Postby Divix798 on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:19 pm

tezza wrote:
Divix798 wrote:I have tried many many system disks fom images from mothership, Raul's and your two files for a Macworks XL 2.0 I think. The "boot" disk goes to white screen then gives me a read error. One Macworks system from mothership (not plus) disk almost worked and went to the last title screen(Welcome to Macworks) but gave me a bomb error:(! In the service manual it says to enter a system disk at flahing icon.
I think I need A "Macworks Plus disk" since thats the OS im using maybe? The one I found on mothership does not work and I cant get Disk copy4.2 to see it!. Does it work for anyone else in Disc copy4.2? Im hoping a fresh install in the Lisa will help but finding software has been a task. If you know any sources that I dont know that would be great :D. There is Macworks Plus II on ebay for a very large sum :(

I also found it very hard to get good copies of boot and installation disks from the web. Some worked and some didn't. Those ones on my Lisa disk image page worked for me.

If you get an error with the Macworks emulator disk image from my site then either the images have not been written to real disks properly or the floppy drive is faulty. You might need to sort this out before trying to reinstall on the ProFile. Yes, there are several versions of the Mac-like Lisa OSs and if you want to repair the software in the Lisa you'll need the right one.

I see you've been posting on the (International) vintage computer forums too. That's a good idea as there are a limited number of Lisa users here in New Zealand.

Anyone else on the forum have a working Lisa?


Yeah I have read many of your posts as well as Next's projects too. They have been alot of valuable help and thank you! I have bought some original copys of the first Macworks on ebay so I hope I can re-start from there. The floppy drive very well could be having problems but im not positive yet. When the Lisa was working for that short period the drive was reading material made from my Mac SE but there still could be unknown issues. Now I know why everyone has several Lisa's :D Also I may break down and get the Xprofile emulator and this would be great for testing purposes. My main goal is to restore my Lisa to near factory condition. Widget drive working as well, and the retrobrite process on the case. I grew up on Commodore's in the 80's and Apple 2's in school. My family bought a Mac IIvx with system 7 on it in the early 90's so Im a bit comfortable on the old macs. I love the new computers too but have a soft spot for the vintage stuff. I have been collecting computers/game consoles on and off for the last 10 years or so. I came across this 5mb Profile drive for short money 6 months ago and thats where the quest for a Lisa started.

Cheers,
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Re: Apple Lisa booting help

Postby tezza on Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:37 am

Corestore wrote:
tezza wrote:Anyone else on the forum have a working Lisa?


Yep. I think I even unboxed it.

Also have a couple of ?dead? Profiles, a couple more Lizae, and one of those dohickeys that replaces the widget drive with a CF card...!

Mike

About what I've got except I only have one ProFile, not necessarily deceased but certainly comatosed :)
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Re: Apple Lisa booting help

Postby tezza on Mon Mar 04, 2013 7:39 am

Corestore wrote:
tezza wrote:Anyone else on the forum have a working Lisa?


Yep. I think I even unboxed it.

Also have a couple of ?dead? Profiles, a couple more Lizae, and one of those dohickeys that replaces the widget drive with a CF card...!

Mike

About what I've got except I have one widget and one ProFile, not necessarily deceased but both are certainly comatosed :)
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Re: Apple Lisa booting help

Postby Divix798 on Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:01 pm

tezza wrote:
Divix798 wrote:I have tried many many system disks fom images from mothership, Raul's and your two files for a Macworks XL 2.0 I think. The "boot" disk goes to white screen then gives me a read error. One Macworks system from mothership (not plus) disk almost worked and went to the last title screen(Welcome to Macworks) but gave me a bomb error:(! In the service manual it says to enter a system disk at flahing icon.
I think I need A "Macworks Plus disk" since thats the OS im using maybe? The one I found on mothership does not work and I cant get Disk copy4.2 to see it!. Does it work for anyone else in Disc copy4.2? Im hoping a fresh install in the Lisa will help but finding software has been a task. If you know any sources that I dont know that would be great :D. There is Macworks Plus II on ebay for a very large sum :(

I also found it very hard to get good copies of boot and installation disks from the web. Some worked and some didn't. Those ones on my Lisa disk image page worked for me.

If you get an error with the Macworks emulator disk image from my site then either the images have not been written to real disks properly or the floppy drive is faulty. You might need to sort this out before trying to reinstall on the ProFile. Yes, there are several versions of the Mac-like Lisa OSs and if you want to repair the software in the Lisa you'll need the right one.

I see you've been posting on the (International) vintage computer forums too. That's a good idea as there are a limited number of Lisa users here in New Zealand.

Anyone else on the forum have a working Lisa?


Hey Tez, I think my floppy drive on my Lisa 2/10 is faulty. I aquired a few genuine Macworks Disks and they also are giving me disk errors. Once every 20th time I try the boot disk it finally will see it. When I enter the system disk it gives me a sad mac error. This drive had been cleaned out and dust free. I have no experiance to service this drive and will propably just find a used replacement. Thanks again :D
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Re: Apple Lisa booting help

Postby tezza on Tue Mar 05, 2013 2:04 pm

Divix798 wrote:Hey Tez, I think my floppy drive on my Lisa 2/10 is faulty. I aquired a few genuine Macworks Disks and they also are giving me disk errors. Once every 20th time I try the boot disk it finally will see it. When I enter the system disk it gives me a sad mac error. This drive had been cleaned out and dust free. I have no experiance to service this drive and will propably just find a used replacement. Thanks again :D

Yes, I've had a faulty Lisa floppy drive before. I'd cleaned it, it was lubed, it made all the right noises....and once in a blue moon it would read the disk but often not. I tried to fix it but ended up getting another one in the end.

There is nothing as frustrating as unreliable disk drives.

Don't discount the floppy controller though. It is possible it's that. Hopefully not.
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Re: Apple Lisa booting help

Postby Divix798 on Tue Mar 05, 2013 4:08 pm

tezza wrote:
Divix798 wrote:Hey Tez, I think my floppy drive on my Lisa 2/10 is faulty. I aquired a few genuine Macworks Disks and they also are giving me disk errors. Once every 20th time I try the boot disk it finally will see it. When I enter the system disk it gives me a sad mac error. This drive had been cleaned out and dust free. I have no experiance to service this drive and will propably just find a used replacement. Thanks again :D

Yes, I've had a faulty Lisa floppy drive before. I'd cleaned it, it was lubed, it made all the right noises....and once in a blue moon it would read the disk but often not. I tried to fix it but ended up getting another one in the end.

There is nothing as frustrating as unreliable disk drives.

Don't discount the floppy controller though. It is possible it's that. Hopefully not.


UPDATE:
I got the drive back in action! One last chance to salvage the floppy drive I cleaned the stepper motor shaft with WD40 with a Q tip. I was thinking maybe the head was lagging from the old grease on the cork screw shaft. But now the drive works every time! Your images work great as well as the OEM disks :D Now that I can boot Im going to try to solve the Widget problem if it will take a format or not (fingers crossed)

Cheers,
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Re: Apple Lisa booting help

Postby arjoll on Tue Mar 05, 2013 5:53 pm

Divix798 wrote:One last chance to salvage the floppy drive I cleaned the stepper motor shaft with WD40 with a Q tip. I was thinking maybe the head was lagging from the old grease on the cork screw shaft. But now the drive works every time!

Great news - but remember WD40 will only be a temporary fix. You'll be best to use a proper lubricant now that you've found the issue - I'd try a tiny bit of silicon grease.
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Re: Apple Lisa booting help

Postby Divix798 on Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:41 pm

arjoll wrote:
Divix798 wrote:One last chance to salvage the floppy drive I cleaned the stepper motor shaft with WD40 with a Q tip. I was thinking maybe the head was lagging from the old grease on the cork screw shaft. But now the drive works every time!

Great news - but remember WD40 will only be a temporary fix. You'll be best to use a proper lubricant now that you've found the issue - I'd try a tiny bit of silicon grease.


Yes I used Tri-flow synthetic grease that is a very light clear lubricant. Ill try a Silicon grease if that is not recommended. So anyways The Regular Macworks disk did boot into Macworks plus on my external hard drive. I was able to see the HD and erase anything I put on the HD such as the program "Dart". Anyways I do not want to re-install macworks system folder on this untill I find the Macworks Plus system Disk and then I can restore the system folder on the Profile. That should solve the endless loop problem. Thanks,

Cheers,

Nick,
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Re: Apple Lisa booting help

Postby tezza on Tue Mar 05, 2013 8:44 pm

Excellent! Sounds like you're well on the way to getting on top of the problem.
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Re: Apple Lisa booting help

Postby arjoll on Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:24 pm

Divix798 wrote:Yes I used Tri-flow synthetic grease that is a very light clear lubricant. Ill try a Silicon grease if that is not recommended.

Silicon was just a stab - as long as you're not relying on WD40 and using a real lubricant then use what works! I'm not familiar with Lisa drives at all (my only contact with a Lisa was playing with one at a local A&P show in the early 80's!) so it's probably best you check on the Vintage Computer Forums to see what the consensus there is.
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